When He judges the 21st century church (and He will), there will be much to rebuke and correct at the top of the list will be the patriarchy which has silenced a word from the Lord given to women. @ Patti: Last night I watched Pastor Pete Briscoe give his rationale for leading his church to welcome female elders to their leadership structure (see above). What transpired at that meeting still brings tears to my eyes. Ever see someone going through sugar fluctuations for example or someone with dementia who may have been a very faithful Christian but is now yelling and screaming the vilest phrases. But no, I was crushed to a heap of tears when my study was met with angry disdain. She was the minister of the Stephen and Women's ministries. Pete and his family find great joy in experiencing the life of christ every day. I teared up several times while watching this. In the ensuing years, I was involved in watching another church handle a conflict in such a poor manner that I felt I had entered the Twilight Zone. Im not even sure Pete would label himself or our church as either egalitarian or complementarian. If women, then why not LGBTQ people? David Horner never knew what he lost when the church came down on you. Some day in the distant future Dee will read email from me BEFORE reading the blog comments. . Why mention this? I so miss BTBF, Pete, Joanne and many others. I hold the church would have failed miserably without women, it actually would not exist. In a letter I wrote to my own elder board one year ago this month, I urged them to do exactly what the elders at BT spent a year doing: to sincerely and deeply examine what part women hadif they had any partin the early church. And the dignity of wife if regarded as honorable in that the Lord of Life is her Lord as completely as He is mutually honored by her husband. I believe that abuse in the church is rampant and needs to be exposed. Here is the BTBF announcement re:female elders. Many evangelicals are apparently highly allergic to uncertainty, but seem to have a more tolerant reaction to arrogance. Now let me say, however, that when a church starts deciding who can and who cannot be ordained to Holy Orders including the diaconate there is a slippery slope to be considered. In the early 1980s, the deacons of the SBC church to which my wife and I belonged, and where we were both in leadership, the issue of whether women could be deacons came up as women were being nominated but the church constitution only allowed for men. An Appeal to Southern Baptists To Support the Pro-life Cause. I guess Im part of the slippery slope. Briscoe and the elders do not wish to do that. Pete Briscoe asked me to lead a Sunday School class on the Reformation. as if its insupportable (as Mr. Darcy might say). before God, we cannot disobey our God-given conscience, if an authority figure were to demand for us to do what is wrong. @ Max: are they seen as dichotomous totally? Thanks for the great examples of how it is supposed to work. replacing your same-gender temptations with opposite-gender temptations) is a sign that sanctification is not ongoing in your life, and therefore youre not one of the elect so out you go with the left boot of (dis)fellowship. roebuck wrote: Those who disobey God go to hell.. We are in South Arlington, and I wish there was a BT campus close by! I find it strange for many reasons, but especially considering women are half the population! More than any other group in all of history, women categorically have been subjugated, domineered, raped, beaten and silenced be it not so, any longer in the body of Jesus Christ! Still, whether they realize this or not, the theological rationale for their decision is at odds with a commitment to the Bibles authority. Although I disagree with them, I hope and pray the best for Bent Tree. A commentary on theology, politics, and culture. Oy. Joanne, as well as Pete, had a profound impact on view of gender roles in the church precisely because they are conservative in their view of the Bible. You can read about them at their website Teaching the Truth. No, they had not changed their mind but our friendship was more important to them. Perhaps because in the secular world, in many situations I wouldnt hesitate to speak up, I stood up and explained that I had made it a point decades before to meet this remarkable Christian woman, who had given her life to the task the Lord had called her to do and I wanted to hear her speak. Sanibel Community Church. Why arent pejorative terms like gymnastics used about arguments for pedobaptism? John. Our condemnation is in our father Adam, who sinned against God in the garden, and our salvation is in Jesus Christ, the God-Man or New Adam. In fact, the action itself was justified but was handled in such a way that outsiders could make assumptions that might be reasonable but were not true. Mourning is how that grief is expressed outwardly. Here it is with one update. For those who are very old and very young, and for those who may not have the strength to leave what no longer respects their integrity . Two churches in our area were voted out of the local association for electing women deacons. Just like the differences between Naziism, Communism, and Objectivism. She put herself through Bible College by doing house work and became a Wycliff Bible Translator. . They were simply reacting to cultural changes. So yes, you will see the the marketing behind the issue change. Pete has offered to be available to help with the transition. Others turned them over and gave their Bibles to the world. . Many know of a few years back of Irving Bibles landmark decision to embrace women as pastors. To this day, my husband and I continue to support them in their ministry even though they are still complementarian because theyget it. I had the same response. But we have great teachers who are women and some are included in the Doctors of the Church. Pete Briscoe LLC Jul 2019 - Present3 years 7 months I come alongside point leaders in the church and the marketplace to help them navigate the personal heaviness of leading an organization. They were building bridges with other inerranitists and the issue of gender was not their focus. I agree about lines in the sand for clarity sake. Pete demonstrates something that I believe that is lacking in todays hard line theologians and pastors. Slowly, with lots of help from good counselors, this couple reunited. That is something to be thankful for. At the end of the day, a church will either ordain women pastors or they wont. He moved in with his sweetie on the side. (That and the music.). Did the Apostle Pauls divine task, understanding and directive include women in church leadership? PS Raleigh would be a great place to start a satellite. Are you up for it, Denny? Perhaps South of I30 or I20?! Bent Tree Bible Message from Sunday, 19 August 2018 Title: Awkward, Part 3: Counseling Series: Awkward Speaker: Pete Briscoe. Before that it was a focus on what is feminine. Duncan has produced some fairly creative theology (see http://www.fpcjackson.org/resource-library/classes-and-training/the-reformed-doctrine-of-baptism-new-testament-practice ) to justify the practice of sprinkling babies. Good to hear at least one evangelical church exists with courageous pastors willing to confront in cases of adultery. I know of two cases where individuals who came out while still celibate were excommunicated from the PCA because apparently not being healed of your SSA (i.e. Ive always hoped to see a change in the church in regard to women in leadership within my lifetime. Pete Briscoe, Senior Pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrollton, TX, talks about what it means to be a trader and how we can remain focused on our mission. I did not make this up; check it out on line. However, Ican assure you that there are a myriad of beliefs on secondary issueswithin thisdiverse congregation. But really, it just seems like they need to come up with new reasons every 20 years, as the old ones become unacceptable and the current one is culture wars. I actually see Petes aim and approach as an attempt to contextually harmonize the texts commonly seen as divisive between the egalitarian and complementarian view points. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote: It is similar to what Congress does with bills they want passed. In terms of authority, the priests God will hold more responsible than those they teach. I am not trying to tell you what to do or even influence your decisions, but I am saying that it is wise to decide where you want your journey to ultimately lead before you start out down the path. Thanks for your willingness to continue the conversation on your blog. I dont believe that God is a respecter of persons. Pete and Joanne, if you read this, please know that you changed me forever. Will we obey God or not? . We havent found a place since Its kinda scary to be honest. When your community revolves around the church, you are losing quite a bit to leave. Daffy Duck commented? I cant speak for Denny Burk, but I do know that he allows for a diversity of opinions to be expressed during the discussions of issues he posts about . Secret Church is a David Platt thing (Platt is a New Calvinist celebrity). A religious liberty newsletter that is a must-read for people of faith. Never mind when the man at church is a 14-year-old Elder. And dont worry about offending me, Im an equal opportunity offender too! Pathetic. What is that?? Also women are more easily deceived so you should trust and do anything a man at church tells you to do. manipulating peoples most deeply held beliefs. I wonder if theyd consider doing so? Now, this is what I remember reading a few years back. But the danger posed by communism wasnt as obvious until later in the cold war years (not to equate communism with egalitarianism, though on second thought). The bible nowhere talks about church membership as different for women and men. Will we believe God or not? That is why I fight so hard against the nonsense that we writeabout on this blog. Of course there are issues more central to the gospel than gender issues. However, with a threat that the state convention would take away our building, the church voted, narrowly, to retain the men only provision. At the end the pastor mentioned a paper the leaders had prepared to explain their decision in more detail. And when girls and women have equal authority and opportunities, communities are more apt to thrive as violence decreases and economic stability increases. Bent Tree Bible Fellowship Business Data. 1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. After a lot of research and study I discovered, by accident, Catherine Bushnell. Thank you for your and your churchs witness. I admire that Briscoe and the elders made a public presentation of the decision and their justification for it. There are, nonetheless, some churches were merely admitting that you experience an ongoing struggle will result in excommunication. Lewis. We are actually seeing that right now with the new focus on testosterone. What kind of so-called men would act like this? Has Jesus Christ given new instructions to His church in the 21st century that supersede those found in Apostle Pauls New Testament letters? manipulating people into believing comp-schmomp is on par with the likes of the Nicene creed, the Reformation, what it is to be protestant, evangelical and christian by a subtle shift in language. What kind of so-called men would act like this? The Oh they are not believers meme just does not cut it, that is basically what I saw in this book. Still, whether they realize this or not, the theological rationale for their decision is at odds with a commitment to the Bibles authority. The theme of this year's "The Nines" two-day conference, which ends Friday, is "Too Hot to Handle: Topics That All Ministry Leaders Are Dealing With But Nobody's Talking About." As usual we have a clergy class that are pretty much making them with their factions of followers. But at least the pastors did not name, shame, and eject these young people. Shortly after graduating, he and his wife Libby moved to Dallas, Texas to lead Bent Tree Bible Fellowship. http://juniaproject.com/but-twelve-apostles-all-male/, Pingback: When Men Slide Over | Jackie Always Unplugged. That is something to be thankful for. How do we perceive this? That is something to be thankful for. Anyone who denies the clear words of St. Paul concerning Adam and Eve rejects the authority and inerrancy of Scripture full stop. The class was successful and quite well attended. I explain that a public leader's failure deserves a public explanation. Dee, I tell people the same thing, whether its a church setting or other group. (We do have one elder who believes women to whom the Spirit gives gifts should not be hindered, but he is only one.) Has Jesus Christ given new instructions to His church in the 21st century that supersede those found in Apostle Pauls New Testament letters? To see conservative churches who embrace the authority of Scripture finally FINALLY! Yet, her intelligence was tempered by her devastating wit. I asked one of the women why they didnt let women speak and she said because women are so easily deceived and the start of so many cults. "If it's really as Jesus said by our love that people are going to know we are his followers how are they ever going to see the expression of Jesus king of love if we always sweep the difficult and the hard under the rug.". This is a great start! Most importantly, how did Jesus treat women? Denny says, You may have people in the church who hold a complementarian position, but their views on the issue have no standing at all where male headship is denied in practice. I asked one of the women why they didnt let women speak and she said because women are so easily deceived and the start of so many cults and I replied yes, like Jim Jones, J. Smith, Armstrong, Scientology, etc etc etc. Especially when people with no sense at all apply it to 14 year olds. OR is operating at a 14 year old maturity level (Im looking at you mark driscoll!). They can continue with a clear conscience because they believe in the rightness of their cause. If you are unfamiliar with this, here it is in a nutshell. Purity of Ideology, Comrade. Nonsense. . The laity may not hear Confessions and pronounce Absolution. Sopy Wow! But at the same time, the impact the person has had on people's lives doesn't diminish the seriousness of the sin, Powell highlighted. [1] The gymnastics required to get from I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, in the Bible, to I do allow a woman to teach and to exercise authority over a man in the actual practice of the local church, are devastating to the functional authority of the Scripture in the life of the people of God. Id actually like to see a point by point rebuttal so hopefully you have time to put one together. The challenge this church faced began in the summer of 1993 when a recent Dallas Theological Seminary graduate, JoAnn Hummel, joined the staff as "Pastor" at Bent Tree Bible Church. I have been wanting to writethis post for a long while but I have waited until Bent Tree Bible Fellowship (BTBF) and Pete Briscoemade the decision to go forward with publicly declaring that they would have women as elders. I am going to try to present a picture of Pastor Pete Briscoe, PastorJoanne Hummel and the doctrinal statement of BTBF to bolstermy contention that BTBFisa conservative church from a doctrinal standpointas well as from actual events that I personallywitnessed. You deal with this more graciously than I would. Male headship does not have to be read into the passage you alluded to, 1 Timothy 2:11-15. It is good to see that you care much for the integrity of the church and the importance of Scripture. If allowing women in the pulpit means LGBT in the pulpit, so be it. The term for the ones who turned them over was called traditores which means those who hand over. The term became a proper name in the word Traitor. . Often times, masculinity gets defined as just being anything that is not considered feminine, one result being that anything feminine (including women) are treated like second class. I wrote with respectful purpose after our elders announced that they had decided to add deacons to our lay leadership and it was quickly apparent that only males would be considered. Denny, one more comment. One of the final straws occurred when my husbandwas asked to pray during a service. 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. Because Denise was leaving, Pete would have to leave too. Are they lost? It is not arrogant to identify egalitarianism as disobedience to God. Subscribe Sign up for my daily email devotionals and to stay in touch! You are talking about a huge number affected by all of this teaching, and to so restrict that group because somehow (for no reason I have really seen, what have I to do with a man who wants to be transsexual??? Can youimagine the Calvinista celebrity crowd responding like this? Pete could have kept the whole incident quiet. Good post, and I love your masthead! ), I do remember the Little Rascals (Our Gang) back in the day, with their He-Man Woman-Haters Club in fact, many times while perusing this blog it comes to mind. The Word was made for men and women, not men and women for the Word. And they dont realize they would be so much better off away from the SBC denomination. But the belief called complementarianism has an entirely different focus, namely that there is a gender-defined hierarchy which grants authority and leadership to men alone. They did something for me that helped my ministry. First let me remind everybody that the religions tradition where I am now ordains women and I am good with that. Briscoe and the elders rely heavily upon William Webbs trajectory hermeneutic. Not all Christian 501(c)3 churches are going to be trajectory inclined towards the placement of women in governmental authority (R) however strong the cultural or societal inclination may exert itself. At Northridge, Powell discovered that the wife of the chairman of their elder board was having a sexual affair with a pastoral staff member who had been in a position of influence for 15 years. He believes that only men can be pastors. My son disagrees with me about women being ministers or pastors. It took years for the church's worship leader to be at a good place spiritually after having committed adultery. The Bible endorses slavery, but we now know that was wrong. One wonders that if people can feel free to respond to their own consciences rather than stay in community with those who place secondary doctrines above Christian brotherhood? @ okrapod Bent Tree Bible Message from Sunday, 10 January 2016 Title: Part 1: Daniel Intro - January 10, 2016 Series: Behind the Scenes: The Book of Daniel Speaker: Pete Briscoe Notes. 1. He says that they are as equally committed to sola scriptura as Baptists are, but have simply come to a different conclusion. 5:18; 2 Tim. While not all staff members reach the point of being recommissioned for ministry after a moral failure, some, including the Bent Tree worship leader, do. This material may be protected by copyright law (Title 17 U.S. Code). He shot himself. [1] Because just the word homosexuality disconnects every neuron above the Christianese brainstem and waves the Bright Red Murder Flag in front of whats left. The current disagreements over womens ordination are similar in saying that while scripture does not specifically permit that role for women even so to deny it to women violates some other values which are found in scripture. @ okrapod: I would rather listen to her over any of the Gospel glitterati, any time, any place. We were attending a large leadership meeting at the church. In the past few years as the pressures of feminism and liberalism have encroached upon the pulpits this historic position has been set aside. If you send me your email, I will forward the link to you. If you want to build a strong marriage, where should you look for direction? Pete Briscoe grew up in an egalitarian church with his parents Jill Briscoe and Stuart Briscoe championing the egalitarian cause. I would probably go back to church if there was one like this down here in SW Florida! I felt really upset but told her and her husband to deal with thisconcern with Pete and the elders. Now I know why the post was offline. Therefore they cannot be ignored by anyone who would understand his age and his people. Although dividing is often done for the sake of defending a truth that some find absolutely essential to the witness of the Gospel, it seems to denigrate the churchs witness: division in the church leads to divided Christian witness in the world and the world questions which one of these many denominations holds the truth about Christianitys message. The issue is certainly important enough for us to try. . The bible read dogmatically on the subject is clear God will keep his people from sinning in ongoing patterns. Looking back I see it as one of those packaged trips where one can see 100 countries in 6 days, dont unpack your bags. We need so much more of this, as a balance to all the authoritarian weirdness. I know this will offend many here as it is a caustic topic but I have never understood the need for Christian groups to categorize women functioning in the Body with the issue of homosexuality as if they go hand-in-hand. . What light can pastor Briscoe shed as well? but since the majority of conservative churches are comp. The rest of the material is extremely solid. I also read the leadership statement from his church. This was pretty much a fight in Christian academic circles which eventually brought us the Danvers statement and the made-up word complementarian. Sometimes I have to get past how terms are used in order to understand better what people are saying and meaning when they say it. They are truly a godly family. I found this quite accidentally and was struck by two things: the replacement of bible content with utilitarianism and your own lack of love for people with whom you disagree by your snarky remarks and condescension (e.g. Eventually, the husband began to teach with me along with Scott and it was great! Sorry about the post going off line. Professors teach; students learn. This way of reading scripture is precisely the kind of thing that Duncan warns about. . It took the pain receding to make me realize how much pain I had been in. And gratitude is where we must go in this time, as Kurt Baxter reminded us on Sunday. On this view, our goal is not merely to discern the ethical position of scripture but the ethical trajectory of scripture. It is vulgar and emotional; but it is kind and generous, active, wide-awake and progressive. Were very dedicated to accurate interpretation. Furthermore, I find the Catholic emphasis on beauty (as seen in your churches) provides me with a sensory experience of Gods presence with us. Neither would have been likely to compromise on inerrancy despite their egalitarian views because of their experience in the conflict over inerrancy. No one knows. So many misuses of scripture to drive toward a point that theyre not even remotely speaking to, to arrive at a justification that has no real biblical foundation. Women Are Free to Serve Without Any Restrictions at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship, Some reflections on a church that has recently embraced egalitarianism, How I Changed My Mind about Women in Leadership: Compelling Stories from Prominent Evangelicals, http://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/article/arise/justifying-injustice-bible-slavery?page=show, Being Egalitarian and Taking the Bible Seriously, http://7aa41354baefb3f610d0-9426158b81c9f57386a468ce77b36d59.r25.cf2.rackcdn.com/uploaded/f/0e5040219_1461257524_future-of-leadership-at-bent-tree.pdf, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfsTk5i7mPw, https://thisbrother.wordpress.com/2015/11/09/if-complementarianism-is-new-it-cannot-be-true/, http://www.radical.net/secret-church/about, http://juniaproject.com/but-twelve-apostles-all-male/, When Men Slide Over | Jackie Always Unplugged. I did not know there was scholarly work already done on everything I was finding. All the things about the period under study that nobody of that time bothered to write down or record because Everybody Knows That!, (You see the same thing in software documentation. He periodically has Simulcasts that New Calvinist pastors sign up for, as additional indoctrination into reformed belief and practice for their church members. Where are the grown ups on either side of the issue saying: these are totally different issues and should be treated as such? I have to pray about that a lot. You are confusing my comments with what SOPY said it seems. This is all the rage in some reformed youth groups, Wish those 22 Copts were available for comment, From the Secret Church website: Federal headship in Scripture is normatively malethe male represents and speaks for the female. We reject this totally. Our views are grounded in scripture, as complementarianism is not a valid reading of the Bible. Grief is what we are feeling on the inside. Sin is what. I believe me and billy need to take a trip out to this,church and visit. What were the situations that were understood, the things in the local culture that the people who received Pauls letter all knew about and did not need to be spelled out? Only disagree with one statement. Any time a moral failure, such as sexual impropriety, occurs among church staff, the congregation should be told immediately. And I rarely cry. Whu? We are to obey God, & no one has the right to ask us to go against our consciences. Your first point draws on a quote from Ligon Duncan, a Presbyterian, which I felt was rather curious. Quite a few of the members clapped at that and so she was able to get up and talk. Pete asked why I thought that I couldn't teach men the stuff that i knew about history. We are linking to it in our upcoming post. Whatever is going on at this church, I hope it is contagious. You may have people in the church who hold a complementarian position, but their views on the issue have no standing at all where male headship is denied in practice. 2. You should see my first copy of her book. The culture is still very much male dominated. Thirdly, the article called for a public conversation. There was the potluck and birthday cake, for her 70 something Birthday, afterwards and the pastor led the prayer and again did not ask her to speak. Providence had one hell of a Sunday school teacher. I really dont think these male headship men would want to marry a woman who is Catholic, as Catholic women are heavily into honoring their consciences in the manner of their living. A week later I got a call from Pete asking me to teach the class on the Reformation. A discussion or debate with Pete Briscoe, some complementarians, and an audience, would be a good starting point. not too long ago that talked the reason why men need to be leaders is because Jesus chose men. 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