You have no clue what I know about substance abuse, 12-step programs, etc, based on my comments here. I dont think Barbara used the word excommunicate, although I do see how one could extrapolate the idea from kicked out. Daisy wrote: if you can remember way back some time ago, a person behaved the same way but under a different name than H.A. There are ways to handle problems that other denominations use that dont involve this evangelical shoot-from-the-hip kick them out response. it seems too public and intrusive for most people, I think; the worst thing Ive heard is that the leaders of the accountability groups go running to the pastor with all the details and what is admitted to in the group comes back later to haunt the person if they attempt to leave the Church. RC Sproul Jrinitiallypled *not guilty," proving he wasnot ready to face his issues. Sproul Jr. has done. Just search his name and spiritual abuse, etc. I realize that you and I may not ever come to a point of complete agreement. I felt Velour was hostile towards Barbara and me, and also H.A. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. Your comment was a nice surprise, Claire. Have to agree. U.S., Newspapers.com Marriage Index, 1800s-current. And I use the analogy deliberately, because it has just about all of the dead-end singularities from which no light can ever escape: Thats why a Guild Navigator is indispensable when folding space. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. I know several individuals who consume large amounts of alcohol on a regular basis and seem to have normal lives and hold down great jobs or are self employed. Obituary. Thanks H.A. First off, there are multiple Presbyterian denominations (Presbyterian denoting the form of government, not the theology, although most claim some degree of Reformed). (P.S. None of the doctors ever diagnosed the root of my problem. I happen to see the public health aspects of alcoholism and drug addiction differently than you and Barbara (and Julie Anne) see them. Seek help! Robert C Sproul III & Vesta Ann (Voohis) - Engagement From that day forward, he chose not to drink. We all have to lay down our aggressions, even those aggressions which we cloak in sugar and spice and everything nice. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ukD8zj6ngVY. Hello Velour, I am sorry you were excommunicated on a trumped up charge. Every person is different. Not just over the alcohol, but based on his other actions (using a cheating site etc) he has disqualified himself. At that point, it makes our comments nothing but gossip. So a married guy being an alcoholic is a justification for using a cheating site? Christian support group, made headlines in The Milpitas Post , etc, etc. I am not against treatment, and Barbara did not say her opinion, so until she specifies, we cannot assume. (Expire a life, or innocence or a reputation, or a familys resources, etc.) If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. And yes, we must continue to pray. Quoting or summarizing her words is fine, but to point blank say she is against treatment for alcoholics is wrong when she did not say that. I have since removed the errant sentence from Valeries comment above. I know that scriptures about church discipline have been posted in their proper context, even with compassion for how to treat those who have repented. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. The last surgery was done at Duke when I was a senior there. Pittsburgh. If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. Earlier, I posted this comment on a FB page discussing this mess. On the way, we were hit head-on by a drunk driver. Heres my list again: I dont really remember seeing anyone in this thread say they are anti- treatment. Tolerable and safe is probably the best you can hope for. Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. However, I would get nervous during youth group meetings where real sinners: drug users, violent criminals, former gang members-were brought to share their testimonies. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. The Bible among other things, is used to provide nourishment to ones soul, to give guidance, to provide proper understanding, to strengthen faith, to provide hope, and to give us examples of the love of God, that we may sincerely do likewise; also to establish order within the body of believers. All. Well, according to their own theology, hes not. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. It didnt sober him up but its good for maintenance of the recovery. Okay, maybe a little anger too. And we explain why we think that word is an inappropriate and unhelpful when talking about domestic abuse. 1. Is there still a scar? When youre a non-drinker at social functions, the drinkers noticed. The ceiling didnt come crashing down and God didnt scream from the rafters, Sinners, the lot of you! Wonder what will happen to churches or SBC leaders if they are not willing to sign off on this resolution? Sproul 2 has done. I even pointed out that books BY people who are MHPs themselves mention cautions to their readers to be careful when doctor shopping because, they say, some MHPs are inept or charlatans. I dont really remember seeing anyone in this thread say they are anti- treatment. You know how to contact her. This was reckless endangerment. I would not doubt it all. Like RC, none of us can dictate to our grown children how to live their lives. I will NEVER get over the fact that a drunk driver took away my friends parents in a split second when she was just 13. OK, well, Im not sure if I am in agreement with that view or not. From what Im seeing on this thread, RC Jr. is Mark Driscoll, but only with more beer added. Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. but I thought most Christian people understood that Christ is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (God) and that a Person died on the Cross. RC Sproul Jr was facing up to 7 years in prison and $21,000 in fines. Maybe the congregation in question would give the same love and grace to someone in a pew. Hi VELOUR, Tax evasion is a crime. Sorry. You are also incorrect that I am putting Barbara down because I disagree with her. I see getting someone into treatment for a major addiction as the responsible thing for a church/employer to do as well as a Christian act of mercy. Its good that you told your parents about it, and its good they protected you from further harm. Yes to all. Daisy, So glad you are with us today. Hospitalization with detox and follow-up care by his physician I, too, thought it was very moving. We really need to drop it as this point. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died. Because she never appeared even tipsy, few people knew her problem. I had forgotten that. He had severe arthritis as well it totally crippled him to the point he could not work, took gold shots, eventually, the treatment and bad medical advice killed him. (And its my understanding that that is the exact attitude of RC Jr. and his followers towards alcoholics in their midst, including a couple of young men who came to learn from him at the Highlands Study Center. It will help you recognize that the picture you paint about RC Jr is wishful thinking that doesnt line up with reality. It just always seemed clear to me how Paul was instructing the Corinthian church to deal with sin that caused harm to the testimony of Christ. Even pastor Wade Burleson who has E-Church here on Sundays doesnt subscribe to that. To paraphrase a 1950s interview with a trailer-trash Ku Kluxer: For it to happen they almost always have to have hit rock bottom. Remember too, that Paul also confronts the church when they do not welcome the repentant brother back. They generally avoided RC Jr like the plague. In that case, the hurting people reference is not applicable and its spin off allusions are incorrect and misleading. Im not seeing how sitting in a church building once a week listening to sermons treats things such as depression or alcoholism. Here are photos of my injuries a few days after the horrific tragedy. The parents would go to the local country club on Saturday nights, and they paid me well to watch their children, who were fantastic little people. Sproul Jr. should NOT be enabled in keeping his job and that he should face consequences (i.e. SEE? . We do not support this book or his return to public ministry.. It doesnt always work when you are in the Boys Club or RC1s son. He was a staunch defender of the inerrancy of the Bible. Would it help your perspective any to know that RC Jr has unjustly excommunicated entire families, and were not just talking a few, including small children, for the alleged sins of their parents? A different opinion here, perhaps, or a different way of looking at this. That trial had beenscheduled for June 6, 2017. (P.S. Okrapod, I thought, worked in radiology or something along those lines. in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. I have not crossed that line to my knowledge. In this day and age of the internet, if someone has a problem (like alcoholism or a psychological issue) they could Google about it. the worst thing Ive heard is that the leaders of the accountability groups go running to the pastor with all the details and what is admitted to in the group comes back later to haunt the person if they attempt to leave the Church. I dont know. His scandals go back approximately two decades. Now I can look back and say, How in the world did we not see how destructive their theology and community was? He was also known to turn a blind eye to drunk driving. Based on what Im seeing by other people here, who have left posts (other than the one person above who says RC Jr is gentle), the guy sounds abusive. This is a disease, not a moral failure. Someone (I dont know who) has definitely enabled RC Jr to drink and give drink to children! ), I didnt appreciate Barbaras comment to me and H.U.G. For all that you talked about how you knew about recovery programs, you showed a lack of knowledge about Al-Anon (for the family and friends of problem drinkers) and said to Lisa who posted here what they would tell her to do if she went, including that sponsors would advocate separation. Crushed the left side of my skull. If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be infringed in any way. H.A. Purge the evil person from among you.. which guy of those 3 would you choose to be stuck with? Their brains truly dont work. But at the age of 15, R.C. His father died during RC's senior year of High School (around 1956-1958). A gamer I knew got rammed and killed by a drunk driver around 20 years ago. I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. As someone who was severely injured by a drunk driver (see bottom of the post), I don't appreciate your "he who is without sin" diatribe. I dont know if Wilsons church actively shames recovering alcoholics, but I have read numerous accounts of Sproul Jrs church doing so. Barbara is correct on the I Cor.5 text. Much easier to see when you are out of bubble like this. But now I understand why youve used it. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: You are insisting on everyone saying treatment for alcoholics is the way to go (and I agree). Sr. cant make Jr. stop drinking. If that is the case, the person who says, Aw, come on. DUI/DWI is a crime. Of course people have to want sobriety for it to work. Even if you arent an addict, you can start to build a tolerance if you drink consistently. My mother couldnt believe I was home so early, lol. I believe that the church, as church, needs to stay out of it. Velour wrote: ), seems to me that enabling is not the same thing as really helping Talk-and-die Syndrome; taken to the hospital where they spent most of the time and effort repairing/removing his spleen; they didnt notice the slow brain-bleed/brain swelling; went critical overnight and he died the next morning. [Update 3/28/19 10:20 am: I have added a couple of tweets. For example, when my daughter was diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor, I struggled and eventually went on a psychotropic drug for about 6-8 months that helped me considerable. That feels like another put down and Im really uncomfortable with it. I have no problem with alcohol use by people who arent alcoholics and are responsible about it. But there is a great deal of good help and it should be tried. Soas far as you know they have adequate job performance, soso did Winston Churchill. Clearly you have never experienced the total helplessness and pain of having an alcoholic loved one. ; but it seems that Velour is like Christ n her desire to see this man reconciled in his relationship to God and with his fellow man. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. And then there are the most of us who do the best we can and stumble on. Leaders can fail, like David, dont you know? In this issue I hope that your apparent hope is justified. [3][4] Sproul has been described as "the greatest and most influential proponent of the recovery of Reformed theology in the last . You have taken this quote out of context . I would because its factoring into your misunderstanding or assumptions about Barbaras first post to this thread. Temporarily remove the alcohol factor from consideration. This led to serious issues for the people involved. Leave these people alone and repent. I have explained myself and you have explained yourself. Usually a Churchill Cocktail about 1/4 inch (or a cm) of whiskey at the bottom of the glass, then fill the rest with water; dilutes the mix down to less than 3% alcohol. I got what Deborah meant when she said addicts cannot be helped, but the other lady who replied to her took that remark the wrong way. She didnt use the term excommunication. Blessings to you both. I had surgery Monday. I pray one day my conscience will grow stronger, so that this wouldn't be necessary. Because DUIs are manly. The Pittsburgh Press. Kind of like connecting Lizzie Borden to a lumberjack because both of them used an ax. The hotter it is, the faster those icy cold spirits will flow. She told me before she died that she had forgiven him & she never thought she would. Got a few of my own. Christiane, this works both ways. People need to wake up. My FIL quit drinking, stayed sober 30 years. What you wrote, brought tears. There is still much distress on this thread, but it does my heart good to see people trying to find common ground. 6:1-4: What shall we say, then? From just a casual observation hes not a drunk. He has to be protected from injuring himself or others-regardless of the fact that it is a sickness and not a crime. Im asking, since you advocate for alcoholics to get non-church treatment AND to be allowed to sit in a pew every week. Most people in this thread are staying on topic in a civil manner . There is usually a reason when people have strong feelings of negativity, and this issue triggers emotional responses from many of us Can you find out for us if this was a New Calvinist takeover thing? He's already a menace on the road when sober. I hope his (second) wife and children get help to take care of themselves around his alcoholism and learn how to set boundaries with him. There isnt much else to say. We really need to drop it as this point. 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